Episode 70: Later Stages Of Leadership Maturity With Susanne Cook-Greuter [The Amiel Show]

This week on the podcast, I welcome back adult development expert, Susanne Cook-Greuter, to discuss the most advanced stages of leadership maturity. Each of these stages is both increasingly complex—bringing new capacities and new challenges—and increasingly rare. We discuss:

  • Self-actualizing or Strategist stage
  • Construct-aware/Ego-aware or Alchemist stage
  • Unitive or Ironist stage

Susanne and I previously spoke in episode 36 about the how vertical development works and what’s common between all developmental models.

In episode 37 we explored how developmental theory helps us reframe two everyday challenges: work/career and pivotal conversations.

In both episodes, we focused on the development stages where 80 percent of adults in the West live. But what about the stages beyond that? What is it like to live there?

That is the focus of this episode.

Our conversation was a genuine “wow.” My mind got a vigorous calisthenic workout, and we teamed up to investigate common confusions about these later stages.

Have a seat, go for a walk, get on a plane, and take a listen. This is one you’ll want to share with friends!

Highlights

  • 8:50 Self-Actualizing/Strategist stage (5-6% of adults in West)
  • 19:00 Capacity to take a stand on ideals
  • 26:00 When growth first really matters to us
  • 30:30 Tempted to take an early retirement package from development?
  • 35:00 “Look how much I know about myself!”
  • 36:00 Construct Aware/Ego Aware/Alchemist stage (<1% of adults in West)
  • 41:00 “Am I nuts?”
  • 44:00 The limits of mapmaking and trying to get beyond the ego
  • 47:00 Unitive or Ironist stage
  • 51:30 Experiencing the wonder of things—consistently
  • 1:00:00 The virtues of hanging out at—and acting from—Self-Actualizing/Strategist

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Episode 25: Pamela Weiss On Leading With Clarity, Courage, And Curiosity [The Amiel Show]

Pamela Weiss is an amazing coach and teacher. She has one foot in the corporate world and another in the world of Buddhism. In fact, she spans so many domains that sometimes I think she must have three or four feet. That’s why I invited her to join me for this historic (play drum roll) episode 25 of the podcast.

In this interview, we talk about three important qualities of leadership: clarity, courage, and curiosity. These are qualities of bodhisattva leaders, “wise feeling beings” who are “dedicated to supporting the welfare of others.” Pamela challenges us to deepen our understanding of what it means to lead in the world.

Before the interview, I introduce a new feature to the podcast: the Jedi Leadership Trick. This week we explore one called Two Feet, Five Breaths. It’s pretty nifty.

Pam-Weiss

Highlights

  • 0:30 Jedi Leadership Trick: Two Feet, Five Breaths
  • 5:20 Introduction of Pamela Weiss
  • 10:40 Leadership: role or way of being?
  • 13:40 Bringing bodhisattva leadership into the vernacular
  • 20:15 Clarity, courage, and curiosity
  • 33:00 This isn’t easy…and it’s not meant to be
  • 35:30 The Personal Excellence Program (PEP)
  • 38:30 Selecting a quality to focus on in your leadership
  • 44:30 Refining your capacity to observe
  • 49:30 Why lack of self-care is often a symptom of something else
  • 52:00 Building authentic connection and the power of group coaching
  • 58:00 What Pamela is deliberately practicing in her life

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I’d like the term bodhisattva to be as commonplace in our language as cappuccino.

–Pamela Weiss  Tweet this quote

Our world is a mess. There’s so much we could help with. What’s most important to me?

–Pamela Weiss Tweet this quote

Read The Transcript

You can view (and then download) a complete, word-for-word transcript of this episode here.

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  4. Give it a rating. Bonus for a review