Episode 42: Lisa Marshall On Exiting, Firing, and Burnout Nation [The Amiel Show]

Sometimes it takes a wise voice unperturbed by convention to make us radically rethink everyday acts. Consider these questions:

  • How do you lay someone off?
  • How can you exit an organization gracefully?
  • What does it take to make meetings juicier?

Lisa Marshall wants you to consider these questions with greater maturity, clarity, and thoughtfulness. That way, in the very act of doing what you’re paid to do, you can grow into a leader others want to hire, partner with, and follow.

Listen in as this seasoned leadership coach and author breathes new life into old questions.

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Highlights

  • 5:00  We still live in Burnout Nation
  • 13:30 Why Lisa insists on putting her coachee’s interests first
  • 16:15 Meaningless meetings vs environments rich in stories of helping customers
  • 22:30 Why the juiciest subjects belong at the start of meetings
  • 25:30 Body language tells you whether a “yes” is genuine
  • 32:30 How to tell someone they’ve been laid off
  • 38:00 Leaders hold the walls of the container
  • 49:30 How to leave an organization gracefully
  • 1:00:00 Saying “I’m sorry” before you leave the organization
  • 1:07:30 Why maturity matters
  • 1:11:30 Why Lisa gardens

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Any meeting without an agenda is almost by definition a waste of time.

–Lisa Marshall  Tweet this quote

‘Thank you’ and ‘I’m sorry’ are the two key elements of completion.

–Lisa Marshall  Tweet this quote

Explore Additional Resources

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Episode 39: Elizabeth Doty On Making Only Promises You Can Keep [The Amiel Show]

Elizabeth Doty is on a mission to focus leaders on their most critical commitments. In Episode 39 of the podcast, this seasoned consultant, author, and frequent contributor to Strategy + Business joins me to ask:

  • What if we were to take our commitments to each other so seriously that we made only the ones we knew we could keep?
  • What if companies recognized that the reliability of their promises to customers and society was central to their success?
  • What if teams stopped waiting around for new leaders to define direction and instead said, “Here’s a proposal for the next three months. Can you support this?”

I think you’ll get great value from this invigorating, high impact conversation. Please share with your friends!

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Highlights

  • 5:00 “The company made me a liar.”
  • 7:20 When businesses drift from their promises
  • 13:30 Why scapegoating CEOs or “rogue employees” doesn’t improve outcomes
  • 16:30 Creating shared maps of different parts of the system
  • 18:00 The peril of new leaders ignoring existing commitments
  • 27:00 The measurable benefits of companies keeping commitments
  • 33:00 A “no harm” diamond company commits to a simple rule
  • 41:00 What teams can do during leadership changes instead of waiting for direction
  • 46:30 Why keeping your head down is risky
  • 48:00 The power of “irrational generosity” during downward spirals
  • 52:30 A hopeful story about promises, money, and career trajectories

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There is an art in crafting commitments and being clear what we’re committing to.

–Elizabeth Doty   Tweet this quote

A recipe for stalling: change your leaders often or put your strategy into question.

–Elizabeth Doty   Tweet this quote

Explore Additional Resources

Liberating structures, a concept introduced by Bill Torbert
Strategy maps—articles by Robert Kaplan and David Norton in Strategic Finance and HBR

New to Podcasts?

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Subscribe to the Show on iTunes (It’s Easy!)

  1. Sign into iTunes using your ID and password
  2. Search the iTunes store for “Amiel Show”
  3. Click on the Subscribe button. It’s in the upper left corner of the screen.

Give Me a Rating or Review on iTunes (It’s Also Easy!)

  1. Sign into iTunes using your ID and password
  2. Search the iTunes store for “Amiel Show”
  3. Click on “Ratings and Reviews”
  4. Give it a rating. Bonus for a review

What to do when you stand someone up

It happens to the best of us.

Amiel looks at watch

You make a commitment to meet someone. Then an interruption happens in your world–a lengthy meeting, calendar mishap, traffic, or a mental mistake–so you don’t make it. And–now here is the key point–you don’t or can’t contact them in advance to say that you won’t be there.

We call this “standing someone up.”

If people were dogs, the person stood up would wait a few minutes, then look for a new bone to chew. If people were turtles, they’d withdraw their neck back into the shell. If we were bonobos, they’d find some nearby genitals to rub.

But people are human beings.

So the person you stood up is likely to have a very human and very predictable response. They’ll feel surprised (unless you always do this to them, which is another story entirely) and upset (unless they didn’t want to see you right now, which is still another tale). Then, depending on how they tend to interpret their experiences–which differs by gender, cultural background, and Enneagram type– they will experience some combination of anger, frustration, and hurt.

In short, most people who get stood up are not happy campers.

Like all broken promises, this moment can go one of several ways. If you flub it, the relationship can take a dip south. If you handle it skillfully, you can maintain or even build trust.

So what do you do?

  1. Calm and center yourself. It happens rarely, but when I stand someone up, I tend to feel shame because keeping promises is very important to me. It’s an instantaneous and habitual reaction. So I’ve learned it’s important for me to calm and center myself before I do anything else. Two Feet, Five Breaths or a similar practice works well.
  2. Get clear on what happened. What is the true reason why you weren’t able to make it? What is the real story behind why you didn’t give them a heads up? Get clear on what kept you from keeping your promise, because you’ll need this in a moment.
  3. Decide how you will contact them. The classic advice is to pick up the phone because this makes it personal and live. So this is a good default. However, we now have many ways of contacting people, so ask yourself: what medium will this person most appreciate? Also, if the goal now is to mend the relationship, maybe it’s time to question the conventional wisdom of calling someone when they’re upset. Does this really serve them and the relationship? Only if you are capable of staying cool when they express their upset. Otherwise, a text, email, or handwritten note that you can drop off that day might produce better results. What if you get their voice mail? This can be a blessing because you can can be real and personal without the other person having to respond right away.
  4. Apologize. A short and direct apology often works better than a long and indirect one. Here’s why: the reason you stood them up is rarely complicated. And if it is, there should be a simple way to sum it up. The longer you blather on, the more likely the other person is to question whether you (a) understood what happened and (b) are taking responsibility for it.
  5. Listen and acknowledge. Mending a broken promise isn’t a one-way act. The goal isn’t to speak until you’ve dissolved your guilt and then move on. The goal is to mend the broken promise. So if the other person expresses upset or tells you the impact on them, acknowledge their words. For this, repeating the words “I’m sorry” is less important than paraphrasing what you hear and telling them it makes total sense. For example, two decades ago I was helping run a gubernatorial race in Michigan. One day the candidate cancelled a meet-and-greet with thirty sharp young lawyers, veritable rising stars, at the top two law firms in the state. I was able to reach the three organizers by phone so they could cancel an hour in advance. So it wasn’t a pure example of standing someone up. Still, when I met the organizers for tea, they were furious. One explained that she had carefully reached out one-on-one to a dozen colleagues from both political parties to get them to come. She also put her reputation on the line by saying, “This guy’s for real.” So, when she had to look each person in the eye and say, “The event is cancelled,” she felt embarrassed. So she really let me have it. (The fact that I was also angry at the candidate for cancelling was irrelevant, and I don’t believe I mentioned it). The others were less angry but equally vocal. I spent over an hour listening, paraphrasing what I heard, and acknowledging that their experience was totally understandable. Boy, was that a challenge for me! This was two years before I started meditating, so it took every ounce of patience to stay grounded and centered. And the upshot? I never heard from the most angry lawyer again. However, one of the others became a regular volunteer for the campaign and the third invited me to a couple social gatherings.
  6. Make a new offer. This step is really important. You’ve broken a commitment, so it’s important to make a new one. An offer is a commitment to bring about a particular result by a specific time frame if the other person accepts. The offer could be as simple as rescheduling to a different date. In some cases, this is enough. However, you may want to offer something extra to further acknowledge the impact you have caused and “make it up” to the other person. If the meeting you missed was at your office or a neutral location, offer to go to them. If you were going to each pay your own way, offer to treat them. Or think of something else you could offer that they would value. And if you don’t know, ask. In fact, regardless of what you offer, you will be asking if they’d like to accept it. (“Will this work for you” or “How about it?”) So you might as well include an extra phrase that lets them tell you what they would value most. You say, “Would this work for you, or is there a better way I can make this up to you?” You don’t have to accept their counteroffer, but it’s nice to invite it.
  7. Fulfill the new promise. Do what you say you are going to do. To ensure this happens, remind yourself of the conditions that caused you to break the original promise, and change the conditions.

That’s my take. Anything you want to add that has worked (or bombed) for you? Shoot me an email at amiel at amielhandelsman.com.

 

I get interviewed plus my role in Duke’s national title

After a two week hiatus for “spring break,” the podcast will return next week.

In the meantime, some exciting updates:

Good interview with me about improving results by coordinating action with others

Jack Butler did a bang up job interviewing me recently. It’s a 45 minute summary of how to to get what you ask for and deliver what you promise–in business, friendship, and the rest of life. This is one of my favorite topics, and I think you’ll enjoy it. Listen here.

New article coming in Fast Company

Fast Company will soon publish the title chapter from Leading When You’re Ticked Off. In the meantime, if you haven’t seen the Kindle book, you can get it here for $2.99.

My contribution to Duke’s men’s college basketball title

On Monday night my alma mater, Duke, beat Wisconsin for the NCAA men’s national championship. After the game, Duke’s Coach K thanked me several times for my outstanding defense. Friends and reporters immediately called me to ask:

  • “How, at 5’10” with a modest vertical leap did you manage to shut down Frank Kaminsky at the end of the game.”
  • “Didn’t you graduate from Duke in 1992”
  • “Do you still have eligibility?”

As it turns out, I was a pretty good defender in my time (despite the fact that Brian Davis once dunked over me in pickup ball). However, my playing days ended in 9th grade. The person who deserves the credit for Monday night is Amile Jefferson, not me.

A podcast heard in over 70 countries

Cool fact: My podcast, the Amiel Show, is now heard in over 70 countries. The top three are the U.S., The United Arab Emirates, and the UK.

Episode 13: David Allen on the Updated (2015) Version of Getting Things Done [The Amiel Show]

hon·or   
/ˈänər/    
Noun
Being one of the first to interview the world’s top productivity guru about his new book

 

It used to be that you were either productive or relaxed–but not both, at least at the same time. Sure, the world’s wisdom traditions have taught for centuries how to move forward in life with quiet minds. But modern organizations were slow to the game.

At least until David Allen entered the scene.

David-Allen

Allen’s 2002 book Getting Things Done not only proclaimed “stress-free productivity” to be possible. It showed people how to do it. The positive results of following the system brought many grown men (and women) to tears. And it led TIME magazine to declare the book “the defining self-help business book of its time.”

On March 17, a week from today, an updated version of the book comes out. (I pre-ordered my copy on Amazon). In Episode 13 of The Amiel Show, David Allen and I discuss what’s new in this version, what’s timeless, and why power naps and someday/maybe lists make life better. We explore (times are approximate):

Episode 7: Bob Dunham On Reliable Promises And Listening For Commitment

Amazing things happen when you remove your blinders and see what it actually takes to coordinate action with others. First, you focus on how we make commitments to each other through conversation. Then, you realize that listening isn’t about being nice. It’s about producing reliable promises. Finally, you take seriously the notion that your public identity–or “personal brand”–depends on your understanding of others’ concerns, the offers you make to address those concerns, and your emotional mood as you walk down the hallway.

Bob Dunham has been introducing leaders and coaches to these points for three decades–and helping them practice their way to excellence. In Episode 7 of The Amiel Show, Bob distilled these lessons into an hour of actionable insights. Bob and I discussed:

  • 2:00 Our blindness that action starts with commitment
  • 7:00 How understanding conversations demystifies innovation
  • 13:00 Bob’s rapid success as a manager by evoking reliable promises
  • 21:00 The conversation for action, listening acts, emotions, and body language
  • 33:30 Getting people to say “yes” is an absolute disaster
  • 40:00 Having opinions but no evidence
  • 51:00 Personal brands and influencing senior leaders
  • 57:30 What Bob is personally practicing in his life

BD-edited

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